Comments on: More Irish than the Irish themselves http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/ Mark Time. Gather My Thoughts. Talk to myself. Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:51:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1 by: Mark Waters http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3772 Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:24:45 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3772 Diarmuid, I could be wrong but I think they have to be born in Ireland to claim citizenship but if their parents are British or Irish they don't have to fulfill the residency requirement (I think!). If one of the parents is not British or Irish then they must be resident in the country for a number of years (3 I think). But, as noted above, this can all be changed by the government without having to consult the people. I prefer the old way. If you're born here you're Irish. End of story. Diarmuid, I could be wrong but I think they have to be born in Ireland to claim citizenship but if their parents are British or Irish they don’t have to fulfill the residency requirement (I think!). If one of the parents is not British or Irish then they must be resident in the country for a number of years (3 I think).

But, as noted above, this can all be changed by the government without having to consult the people.

I prefer the old way. If you’re born here you’re Irish. End of story.

]]> by: Diarmuid http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3771 Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:10:22 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3771 So I am now led to believe that every single person holding a British passport in the entire world (honestly well over 60million) can claim Irish citizenship???????? So where is the British equiv. of this law as the British passport may come in handy sometime in the future! What a bloody joke of a country Ireland has become So I am now led to believe that every single person holding a British passport in the entire world (honestly well over 60million) can claim Irish citizenship????????

So where is the British equiv. of this law as the British passport may come in handy sometime in the future!

What a bloody joke of a country Ireland has become

]]> by: Treasa http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3610 Tue, 31 May 2005 18:17:33 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3610 Dave, agreed...but I would venture to suggest that that doesn't necessarily extend to allowing them to evade the need to consult us on constitutional matters. Dave,

agreed…but I would venture to suggest that that doesn’t necessarily extend to allowing them to evade the need to consult us on constitutional matters.

]]> by: Dave http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3608 Tue, 31 May 2005 18:05:45 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3608 And the majority voted for the referendum to allow the Government to do that. That's what we voted for. We also elect our public representatives to make the laws. There's no point in having them if we don't give the 'a freehand' on most issues. And the majority voted for the referendum to allow the Government to do that. That’s what we voted for. We also elect our public representatives to make the laws. There’s no point in having them if we don’t give the ‘a freehand’ on most issues.

]]> by: Treasa http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3606 Tue, 31 May 2005 17:50:25 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3606 Mark, What would, and has in the past, diluted the value of Irish citizenship is the sale of Irish passports. What matters to me is that there is a clear set of rules regarding who is entitled to Irish citizenship and under what conditions, be it being born here, being born to parents resident here for X number of years, or being born to an Irish or British parent, or being resident here long enough to become naturalised and that those rules are applied fairly and transparently. Whether they have their basis in the constitution which is far from perfect, or in enacted legislation is of secondary importance. Obviously under the latter case, the potential exists for a government to change them (in which case it'll be time to lobby your local TD) but frankly, that's true for a hell of a lot of day to day running of the country. I do not, however, agree with your assessment of incompetency on the part of the lawmakers. In fact, much as it might gut me to suggest it, it displays competency of a Machiavellian nature on a monumental scale and the real impact is not so much on citizenship but on the form of democracy in this country. Put simply, you can bet wherever possible, the phrase “unless provided for by law” will be inserted in constitutional amendments to protect the government of the day from having to revisit matters through referenda. Referenda are problematic, you see. They allow the electorate to say "no". They allow the electorate to give the government bloody noses. I'd have to say that I'm unwilling to get hung up on the subject of citizenship uniquely, because I see this as possibly a bad precedent for referenda on any subject at all, not just citizenship. Mark,

What would, and has in the past, diluted the value of Irish citizenship is the sale of Irish passports. What matters to me is that there is a clear set of rules regarding who is entitled to Irish citizenship and under what conditions, be it being born here, being born to parents resident here for X number of years, or being born to an Irish or British parent, or being resident here long enough to become naturalised and that those rules are applied fairly and transparently. Whether they have their basis in the constitution which is far from perfect, or in enacted legislation is of secondary importance. Obviously under the latter case, the potential exists for a government to change them (in which case it’ll be time to lobby your local TD) but frankly, that’s true for a hell of a lot of day to day running of the country.

I do not, however, agree with your assessment of incompetency on the part of the lawmakers. In fact, much as it might gut me to suggest it, it displays competency of a Machiavellian nature on a monumental scale and the real impact is not so much on citizenship but on the form of democracy in this country. Put simply, you can bet wherever possible, the phrase “unless provided for by law” will be inserted in constitutional amendments to protect the government of the day from having to revisit matters through referenda. Referenda are problematic, you see. They allow the electorate to say “no”. They allow the electorate to give the government bloody noses. I’d have to say that I’m unwilling to get hung up on the subject of citizenship uniquely, because I see this as possibly a bad precedent for referenda on any subject at all, not just citizenship.

]]> by: Mark Waters http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3595 Tue, 31 May 2005 16:54:46 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3595 Dave, it's not about the inconvenience or the bureaucracy, it's about the fact that the definition of Irish citizenship was changed by a law passed by the Dail in December 2004 without them having to consult the people. I'd say very few of us would have been aware of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004 and what was in it. The point is that the citizenship referendum gave the government a freehand to define Irish citizenship without having to consult the people. I would say that dilutes the value of the citizenship that we both take pride in having. Dave, it’s not about the inconvenience or the bureaucracy, it’s about the fact that the definition of Irish citizenship was changed by a law passed by the Dail in December 2004 without them having to consult the people. I’d say very few of us would have been aware of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004 and what was in it.

The point is that the citizenship referendum gave the government a freehand to define Irish citizenship without having to consult the people. I would say that dilutes the value of the citizenship that we both take pride in having.

]]> by: Dave http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3590 Tue, 31 May 2005 16:25:29 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3590 What exactly is the problem. The only problem I see is that the forms haven't been updated. Personally I have a valuation on being Irish so I don't really have a problem having the <strong>huge</strong> inconvienence of getting my birth cert., when I register my child. What exactly is the problem. The only problem I see is that the forms haven’t been updated. Personally I have a valuation on being Irish so I don’t really have a problem having the huge inconvienence of getting my birth cert., when I register my child.

]]> by: Mark Waters http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3586 Tue, 31 May 2005 15:37:53 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3586 For me the real issue that this case highlights is the power of the clause "unless provided for by law" which reduces Irish citizenship to something that is decided at the whim of a government. For me the real issue that this case highlights is the power of the clause “unless provided for by law” which reduces Irish citizenship to something that is decided at the whim of a government.

]]> by: Treasa http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3581 Tue, 31 May 2005 12:24:30 +0000 http://www.markingtime.org/blog/2005/05/31/more-irish-than-the-irish-themselves/#comment-3581 "Brilliant. Our incompetent lawmakers have made the citizens of perfidious Albion more Irish then the natives." Presumably, the same onus will be on the British parent or parents to establish their child's right to Irish citizenship in the way that Irish parents will now have to - i.e. - it's not any more automatic for Irish-born babies of British parent(s) than for Irish-born babies of Irish parent(s). The particular incompetency as far as I'm concerned is the lack of updated forms. “Brilliant. Our incompetent lawmakers have made the citizens of perfidious Albion more Irish then the natives.”

Presumably, the same onus will be on the British parent or parents to establish their child’s right to Irish citizenship in the way that Irish parents will now have to - i.e. - it’s not any more automatic for Irish-born babies of British parent(s) than for Irish-born babies of Irish parent(s).

The particular incompetency as far as I’m concerned is the lack of updated forms.

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